Winterization in Seattle

[MnSeabalt]

First winter and I'm storing my '23 CS22 on the outdoor Rack n stack on the lake in Seattle. Dealer quoted me $840 after tax for winterization. Wondering If I can forgo it and just do the "one button flush" on my VP..? It would be amazing not only saving that $840 but even better I would then be able to take the boat out on the odd nice day this Winter....

[bruceb58]

I am sure that winterization includes more than just draining the block. You need to change the engine and gear oil as well among other things.

[billk2632]

Get an itemized list of what that includes -- there are some annual maintenance items (oil change, drive lube change, fuel filter) that are typically done at the same time. Also in addition to draining the water from the engine, they should also be fogging the engine. If the $840 includes those things it probably is not a bad price. Your VP manual should have basic storage / layup procedures. Bottom line, most people do the annual maintenance at the end of the season, that way the boat is pretty much ready to go in the spring. All of this is pretty basic DIY if you choose. I do most of this myself - except for the drive, have the marina pull and inspect every other year.

If you are really planning to use the boat some over the winter it would be a waste of $$ to fog the engine - otherwise I would still have all the maintenance done.

[MnSeabalt]

I am sure that winterization includes more than just draining the block. You need to change the engine and gear oil as well among other things.

Hey Thanks Bruce. I have that quoted from them as well in a separate annual service. I will still be getting that done. The $840 was just for draining and adding antifreeze: Here's what they had for Winterize,

BASICWT BASIC 1-STAR WINTERIZATION // TREAT FUEL / DRAIN RAW WATER PORTIONS OF THE COOLING
SYSTEM / REFILL WITH RV ANTIFREEZE MIX / CHECK STRENGTH OF ANTI FREEZE IN FWC
SYSTEM // FOG CYLINDERS/ COAT ENGINE FOR RUST CONTROL // FREEZE PROTECTION ONLY//
DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY ENGINE MAINTENANCE.
22860999 QUICKCARE STABIL 1.00 17.58 17.58
CRC06068 ENGINE STORE, FOGGING OIL 1.00 14.53 14.53
CRC06077 HEAVY DUTY MARINE SILICONE 1.00 15.20 15.20
FUEL-INJECTION WINTERIZE MIX 1.00 22.50 22.50
RV-ANTIFREEZE RV-ANTIFREEZE - GAL 5.00 20.00 100.00
Freight Freight

[MnSeabalt]

Get an itemized list of what that includes -- there are some annual maintenance items (oil change, drive lube change, fuel filter) that are typically done at the same time. Also in addition to draining the water from the engine, they should also be fogging the engine. If the $840 includes those things it probably is not a bad price. Your VP manual should have basic storage / layup procedures. Bottom line, most people do the annual maintenance at the end of the season, that way the boat is pretty much ready to go in the spring. All of this is pretty basic DIY if you choose. I do most of this myself - except for the drive, have the marina pull and inspect every other year.

If you are really planning to use the boat some over the winter it would be a waste of $$ to fog the engine - otherwise I would still have all the maintenance done.

Thanks Bill. The Marina doesn't allow for almost any DIY. If it involves any fluids it's strictly prohibited. So kind of stuck using the dealer for most things. Im unsure how much I would use the boat over the winter. Maybe 2-3 times. I would still have the dealer before winter do the engine oil / gear oil changes / whatever else is on the annual service. Would it make sense to still fog the engine when they do the annual service, even if there is a possibility I'd be taking it out a few times over the winter?

The $840 Winterization im asking about forgoing in lieu of the quick flush button includes the following:

BASICWT BASIC 1-STAR WINTERIZATION // TREAT FUEL / DRAIN RAW WATER PORTIONS OF THE COOLING
SYSTEM / REFILL WITH RV ANTIFREEZE MIX / CHECK STRENGTH OF ANTI FREEZE IN FWC
SYSTEM // FOG CYLINDERS/ COAT ENGINE FOR RUST CONTROL // FREEZE PROTECTION ONLY//
DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY ENGINE MAINTENANCE.
22860999 QUICKCARE STABIL 1.00 17.58 17.58
CRC06068 ENGINE STORE, FOGGING OIL 1.00 14.53 14.53
CRC06077 HEAVY DUTY MARINE SILICONE 1.00 15.20 15.20
FUEL-INJECTION WINTERIZE MIX 1.00 22.50 22.50
RV-ANTIFREEZE RV-ANTIFREEZE - GAL 5.00 20.00 100.00
Freight Freight

[billk2632]

The first time you run the engine, the fogging oil burns off, so for example if you fog it in November, then run it in December, the fogging is gone.
What is described above in the $840 service is the text book, full blown winterization for an engine that is being stored in a subfreezing location and is not going to be run for several months. If you do this type of winterization, the first time you start the engine, the antifreeze etc flushes out and would have to be re-winterized to get the same protection again. Volvo Penta will tell you that the quick drain system accomplishes what you need to protect the engine in freezing temperatures -- however they also say it's intended to "extend" the season or use in areas where you would use the boat periodically. It's not for the person in Minnesota that stores their boat for 5-6mos over a northern winter. The one risk with the quick drain systems is over time the drains can clog and not fully drain the engine - then you have a problem. The full winterization your marina quoted will protect the engine through Siberia, but you can't run it without winterizing it again.

I am in NC and while we get freezing temperatures, hard multi day freezes are rare - many people here simply do the quick drain and use their boats periodically through the winter. My boat does not have the quick drain, so I winterize (sans the antifreeze) and don't use my boat Dec-Mar - for me there are really not enough winter days I would use the boat - if I had the quick drain I might think differently. I would talk to folks around your marina to see what others are doing.

[MnSeabalt]

The first time you run the engine, the fogging oil burns off, so for example if you fog it in November, then run it in December, the fogging is gone.
What is described above in the $840 service is the text book, full blown winterization for an engine that is being stored in a subfreezing location and is not going to be run for several months. If you do this type of winterization, the first time you start the engine, the antifreeze etc flushes out and would have to be re-winterized to get the same protection again. Volvo Penta will tell you that the quick drain system accomplishes what you need to protect the engine in freezing temperatures -- however they also say it's intended to "extend" the season or use in areas where you would use the boat periodically. It's not for the person in Minnesota that stores their boat for 5-6mos over a northern winter. The one risk with the quick drain systems is over time the drains can clog and not fully drain the engine - then you have a problem. The full winterization your marina quoted will protect the engine through Siberia, but you can't run it without winterizing it again.

I am in NC and while we get freezing temperatures, hard multi day freezes are rare - many people here simply do the quick drain and use their boats periodically through the winter. My boat does not have the quick drain, so I winterize (sans the antifreeze) and don't use my boat Dec-Mar - for me there are really not enough winter days I would use the boat - if I had the quick drain I might think differently. I would talk to folks around your marina to see what others are doing.

Thanks Bill. Good heads up on the drains being susceptible to clogging. I would think that wouldn't be a potential issue the first couple seasons. Sounds like the quick flush might be the ticket....considering we also don't get hard multi day freezes in Seattle. I'll plan on talking to other folks at the marina and see what they are doing.

[billk2632]

One more thought, I have always heard that in order for something like an engine block to freeze to the point of breaking, it takes an extended cold period -- one night - which is really a few hours at 25deg is not going to crack an engine block. 3 nights in a row at 25deg and a daily high below 40deg THEN you are getting into dangerous territory. Not that I want to test that theory.

[MnSeabalt]

One more thought, I have always heard that in order for something like an engine block to freeze to the point of breaking, it takes an extended cold period -- one night - which is really a few hours at 25deg is not going to crack an engine block. 3 nights in a row at 25deg and a daily high below 40deg THEN you are getting into dangerous territory. Not that I want to test that theory.

I heard the same. either way I would hit the engine flush button after every hypotheticall use in the Winter.

[bruceb58]

Out of curiosity, what engine do you have? Do you not have closed cooling?

[MnSeabalt]

Out of curiosity, what engine do you have? Do you not have closed cooling?

Vp250 - closed cooling yes I believe so. Why do you ask? I’ll be honest I don’t know engines well though so I’m not sure I understand closed cooling vs the alternative. I believe it is though.

[bruceb58]

Out of curiosity, what engine do you have? Do you not have closed cooling?

Vp250 - closed cooling yes I believe so. Why do you ask? I’ll be honest I don’t know engines well though so I’m not sure I understand closed cooling vs the alternative. I believe it is though.

Then you have zero issues with the engine block freezing which has been mentioned in this thread MANY times. It is full of coolant which does not freeze and you don't need to drain it.

When you drain your system, you are basically only draining the raw water side of the heat exchanger, the manifolds and possibly the raw water pump. The engine is not getting drained.

[billk2632]

MnSeabalt -
I totally missed the fact that new VP engines are closed cooling (mine is a bit older and raw water cooled). That doesn't really change the need to protect it in freezing temperatures. It's just limited to the exhaust manifolds and heat exchanger since the engine itself has antifreeze in it - like a car engine.
Without getting into too much detail, in general:
A raw water cooled engine circulates raw (seawater) through the engine and manifolds then overboard to cool the engine and manifolds - historically most marine engines were designed this way.
A closed cooling system has antifreeze in the engine block itself with a heat exchanger. The heat exchanger works like a radiator in a car, only it uses seawater to cool the coolant vs air in a car radiator (it's the small whiteish box on the front of your engine where you add antifreeze). Seawater is pumped through the heat exchanger and exhaust manifolds to cool them and then overboard. Even in a closed cooling system, these seawater components need freeze protection. Closed cooling is generally considered better as it can maintain a temperature better and you don't have corrosive seawater running through the engine block.

This does not change the discussion we have been having about your winterizing, just realize there is a little less to winterize in your system, but still expensive engine parts that can be damaged by freezing -- I would trust the quick flush system a little more on a closed cooling system -- that's just my opinion.

[bruceb58]

And to add....the $800+ they are asking to do this is totally unreasonable. You don't need to replace the water they drained from the raw side of the system with antifreeze. It does NOT need to have antifreeze poured into it...air doesn't freeze.

This is so easy to do yourself. Learn how to do it and save yourself $800.

What is way more important is changing the gear oil and engine oil before you lay up for the winter. Also, pull your drive every two years to inspect the u-joint bellows, gimbal bearing and check alignment of the engine/drive. Every two years change your water pump impeller but i would do that in the spring.

When I bought my current boat, the previous owner had never had the drive pulled for 3 years. The alignment was so far off that the coupler is now partially damaged. Even with the engine aligned, some damage was done to the splines and it makes putting the drive back on a little harder.

I never fog my engine or run a 2 stroke mixture through the engine but my engine is stored in a much drier climate than Seattle. Personally, with an engine with cat converters, you may be doing more harm than good with an oil mixture but that's just me.

[MnSeabalt]

MnSeabalt -
I totally missed the fact that new VP engines are closed cooling (mine is a bit older and raw water cooled). That doesn't really change the need to protect it in freezing temperatures. It's just limited to the exhaust manifolds and heat exchanger since the engine itself has antifreeze in it - like a car engine.
Without getting into too much detail, in general:
A raw water cooled engine circulates raw (seawater) through the engine and manifolds then overboard to cool the engine and manifolds - historically most marine engines were designed this way.
A closed cooling system has antifreeze in the engine block itself with a heat exchanger. The heat exchanger works like a radiator in a car, only it uses seawater to cool the coolant vs air in a car radiator (it's the small whiteish box on the front of your engine where you add antifreeze). Seawater is pumped through the heat exchanger and exhaust manifolds to cool them and then overboard. Even in a closed cooling system, these seawater components need freeze protection. Closed cooling is generally considered better as it can maintain a temperature better and you don't have corrosive seawater running through the engine block.

This does not change the discussion we have been having about your winterizing, just realize there is a little less to winterize in your system, but still expensive engine parts that can be damaged by freezing -- I would trust the quick flush system a little more on a closed cooling system -- that's just my opinion.

Thanks for the lesson Bill! All good stuff.

And to add....the $800+ they are asking to do this is totally unreasonable. You don't need to replace the water they drained from the raw side of the system with antifreeze. It does NOT need to have antifreeze poured into it...air doesn't freeze.

This is so easy to do yourself. Learn how to do it and save yourself $800.

What is way more important is changing the gear oil and engine oil before you lay up for the winter. Also, pull your drive every two years to inspect the u-joint bellows, gimbal bearing and check alignment of the engine/drive. Every two years change your water pump impeller but i would do that in the spring.

When I bought my current boat, the previous owner had never had the drive pulled for 3 years. The alignment was so far off that the coupler is now partially damaged. Even with the engine aligned, some damage was done to the splines and it makes putting the drive back on a little harder.

I never fog my engine or run a 2 stroke mixture through the engine but my engine is stored in a much drier climate than Seattle. Personally, with an engine with cat converters, you may be doing more harm than good with an oil mixture but that's just me.

Yessir I won't be paying them to put antifreeze in where it isn't needed. I'll just use my quick flush button and ensure all the water is out of there afterwards (wonder if I can blow air through?)

I will be doing the annual service still to include engine and gear oil, however im tempted to wait until January to do that as its half price labor then. (they quoted me $1050 in labor for the 100 hour/annual service) - I will say I dont believe the include pulling the drive in the annual service.. I'll have to inquire about that.

Any particular reason you suggest waiting until spring to do Impeller? Does 120 hours seem a little shy of needing it done this go around?