R6 Surf vs Sterndrive - Engine Choices

[BobRae99]

Hey Les, With boat show season in full swing I've turned my attention to considering an R6 Surf again. While I like the Malibu and especially the Nautique G23, neither of those boats are suitable for the large body of water I boat on, which can often be pretty rough. We do get many evenings with calm conditions so I was thinking an R6 Surf model might be best for me. My concern is wave height, length and push. Now that you've had a full season, a more detailed experience about wave quality, handling with the FWD drive, etc would really be appreciated. Thanks, B

Bob... I know you didn't ask me, and I have an R8S not an R6S so I don't know if that makes a difference not being a direct comparison to an R6. I will tell you that I've had a year with my R8S last year and after a year I'm VERY Pleased with the wave. I'm coming from an R7 Surf and Ive spent a lot of time behind a Mastercraft X23. The R7S I couldn't really surf the wave without a full boat load of people or taking time to fill an additional fat sac if there was just a few people in the boat. This R8S I can surf with just my wife and son in the boat and I don't even have the wave on the highest setting. I usually surf with 80% ballast and drive setting at 3 (I believe it goes up to 7!!). My wife and son surf with 50% ballast and 1 on the PTA. I'm 6'3 and 250 lbs. I feel like the wave really is competitive to dedicated surf boats... it's every bit as good as the mastercraft x23.

If you don't have any professional surf aspirations I really think you'll be pleased.

Thanks DS, Every bit of information is helpful. The sterndrive to surf model adds about $55,000 to the base price so it isn't a huge thing, but an R8 will be a bit big for my purposes. If the R6 puts up a comparative wave (give or take) I think I'd be inclined to go the surf route. Any comment on how the boat feels steering wise as compared to a stern drive? Weird? Do you get used to it quickly? Thanks, B

[dsthomas]

Thanks DS, Every bit of information is helpful. The sterndrive to surf model adds about $55,000 to the base price so it isn't a huge thing, but an R8 will be a bit big for my purposes. If the R6 puts up a comparative wave (give or take) I think I'd be inclined to go the surf route. Any comment on how the boat feels steering wise as compared to a stern drive? Weird? Do you get used to it quickly? Thanks, B

So I felt no significant difference in handling at speed they are nearly identically. In idle it handles every bit as well as traditional stern drive. The prop on the forward drive being a few feet forward from the traditional stern drive they do pivot a little differently in idle around the dock but nothing significant almost not worth mentioning really. As you know the R8S is much heavier than the R7S was, so in idle it takes a little power to get her to pivot around, but I got use to that very quickly. The biggest thing I had to get used to is the silent shift. I was so used to relying on that "clunk" sound to know the boat is in gear, it was just unexpected not hearing anything. Took me a few times out to adjust but that wasn't a big deal, I like the silent shift it's very smooth.

[BobRae99]

Thanks DS, Every bit of information is helpful. The sterndrive to surf model adds about $55,000 to the base price so it isn't a huge thing, but an R8 will be a bit big for my purposes. If the R6 puts up a comparative wave (give or take) I think I'd be inclined to go the surf route. Any comment on how the boat feels steering wise as compared to a stern drive? Weird? Do you get used to it quickly? Thanks, B

So I felt no significant difference in handling at speed they are nearly identically. In idle it handles every bit as well as traditional stern drive. The prop on the forward drive being a few feet forward from the traditional stern drive they do pivot a little differently in idle around the dock but nothing significant almost not worth mentioning really. As you know the R8S is much heavier than the R7S was, so in idle it takes a little power to get her to pivot around, but I got use to that very quickly. The biggest thing I had to get used to is the silent shift. I was so used to relying on that "clunk" sound to know the boat is in gear, it was just unexpected not hearing anything. Took me a few times out to adjust but that wasn't a big deal, I like the silent shift it's very smooth.

I'm sure the smooth transmission shifting is a nice addition. A friend I boat with has a Centurion Surf boat that has a similar setup. You can tell the transmission has shifted between neutral and forward by a "whine" followed by the boat moving forward. No clunks, so I'd be quick to get used to the new VP setup.

While not necessary for the R6, I think 'd spec the VP430. The online reviews show the R8 Surf VP380 topping out at 48 mph, so I'm thinking an R6 Surf VP430 should exceed 50 mp/h. I believe the R6 sterndrive model with a VP430 tops out at around 54.5. I'll be reaching out to the dealer for the prop charts shortly. My R3 Sterndrive with a VP350 will do around 52, so I'd like to stay in that speed range (don't ask me why - no reason).

My biggest worry about these forward drives is hitting something. There is zero protection with this setup if you encounter the bottom of the lake or an underwater obstruction. I hit bottom in 2021 and the drive kicked up. While I damaged the props and a drive shaft, I was able to use the boat for the rest of the weekend and had the props straightened. The full repair was completed over the winter (new drive shaft part, bearings and ski repair). If that happens with a forward drive, I suspect I'd need a tow back to the marina. I guess I'll have to be more careful.

[dsthomas]

While not necessary for the R6, I think 'd spec the VP430. The online reviews show the R8 Surf VP380 topping out at 48 mph, so I'm thinking an R6 Surf VP430 should exceed 50 mp/h. I believe the R6 sterndrive model with a VP430 tops out at around 54.5. I'll be reaching out to the dealer for the prop charts shortly. My R3 Sterndrive with a VP350 will do around 52, so I'd like to stay in that speed range (don't ask me why - no reason).

My biggest worry about these forward drives is hitting something. There is zero protection with this setup if you encounter the bottom of the lake or an underwater obstruction. I hit bottom in 2021 and the drive kicked up. While I damaged the props and a drive shaft, I was able to use the boat for the rest of the weekend and had the props straightened. The full repair was completed over the winter (new drive shaft part, bearings and ski repair). If that happens with a forward drive, I suspect I'd need a tow back to the marina. I guess I'll have to be more careful.

That sounds about right I have yet to see 48 mph but I'm sure I could get there under perfect conditions and maybe if I drop a few pounds :0). I can get 46 pretty easy and with glassy water I've hit 47 with my wife and son on board. I have yet to hit anything with the prop but I too worry about it. Thankfully the lakes we are on are fairly deep, with shallows well marked. We trailer our boat and initially I was paranoid about hitting the prop on the trailer. Knock on wood I've had three seasons with the forward drive (one on the R8S) and I've yet to hit my trailer. We have a Boatmate trailer and she centers on there perfect every time... Hope I didn't just jynx my self by saying that ha ha.

[BobRae99]

While not necessary for the R6, I think 'd spec the VP430. The online reviews show the R8 Surf VP380 topping out at 48 mph, so I'm thinking an R6 Surf VP430 should exceed 50 mp/h. I believe the R6 sterndrive model with a VP430 tops out at around 54.5. I'll be reaching out to the dealer for the prop charts shortly. My R3 Sterndrive with a VP350 will do around 52, so I'd like to stay in that speed range (don't ask me why - no reason).

My biggest worry about these forward drives is hitting something. There is zero protection with this setup if you encounter the bottom of the lake or an underwater obstruction. I hit bottom in 2021 and the drive kicked up. While I damaged the props and a drive shaft, I was able to use the boat for the rest of the weekend and had the props straightened. The full repair was completed over the winter (new drive shaft part, bearings and ski repair). If that happens with a forward drive, I suspect I'd need a tow back to the marina. I guess I'll have to be more careful.

That sounds about right I have yet to see 48 mph but I'm sure I could get there under perfect conditions and maybe if I drop a few pounds :0). I can get 46 pretty easy and with glassy water I've hit 47 with my wife and son on board. I have yet to hit anything with the prop but I too worry about it. Thankfully the lakes we are on are fairly deep, with shallows well marked. We trailer our boat and initially I was paranoid about hitting the prop on the trailer. Knock on wood I've had three seasons with the forward drive (one on the R8S) and I've yet to hit my trailer. We have a Boatmate trailer and she centers on there perfect every time... Hope I didn't just jynx my self by saying that ha ha.

So, I received the prop charts and was a bit surprised about the R6 performance (time to plane) compared to the R8.

R8

VP 350 2.32,K3 prop, 45 mph, 5.5 (time to plane)
VP 380 2.32,K4 prop, 47.5 mph, 5.3
VP 430 2.32,K5 prop, 50.4 mph, 4.3

The VP430 gets a bit more top end, but a significantly better "hole shot".

R6

VP 350 2.32, K4 prop, 47.3 mph, 6.5 (time to plane)
VP 380 2.32, K4 prop, 48.5 mph, 6.4
VP 430 2.12, K5 prop, no data available

I think we can estimate the top end of the VP430 at 48.5 + 2.9 mph = 51.4 (at least) as the R8 (380/450) have the same prop change (K4 to K5) and that boat gains 2.9mph from the prop change. The R6 430 (assuming it can get to redline with a 2.12 final drive) should add to that as it is a "taller" setup, so a top speed of ~52 mph? (BB are you with me??)

The disappointing thing with the R6 is the time to plane. I would have thought it would be snappier given it is lighter and shorter. I'd like to know what it is with a VP430. The dealer suggest they may not have built one with that setup, but I've watched some YouTube videos showing that engine in an R6 Surf, so maybe that setup has been tested. The dealer is checking for me.

I feel like the R6 Surf would feel pretty sluggish compared to my R3 (350 - non surf), and also slower than an R8 Surf. Something to think about.

[Big Block Power]

While not necessary for the R6, I think 'd spec the VP430. The online reviews show the R8 Surf VP380 topping out at 48 mph, so I'm thinking an R6 Surf VP430 should exceed 50 mp/h. I believe the R6 sterndrive model with a VP430 tops out at around 54.5. I'll be reaching out to the dealer for the prop charts shortly. My R3 Sterndrive with a VP350 will do around 52, so I'd like to stay in that speed range (don't ask me why - no reason).

My biggest worry about these forward drives is hitting something. There is zero protection with this setup if you encounter the bottom of the lake or an underwater obstruction. I hit bottom in 2021 and the drive kicked up. While I damaged the props and a drive shaft, I was able to use the boat for the rest of the weekend and had the props straightened. The full repair was completed over the winter (new drive shaft part, bearings and ski repair). If that happens with a forward drive, I suspect I'd need a tow back to the marina. I guess I'll have to be more careful.

That sounds about right I have yet to see 48 mph but I'm sure I could get there under perfect conditions and maybe if I drop a few pounds :0). I can get 46 pretty easy and with glassy water I've hit 47 with my wife and son on board. I have yet to hit anything with the prop but I too worry about it. Thankfully the lakes we are on are fairly deep, with shallows well marked. We trailer our boat and initially I was paranoid about hitting the prop on the trailer. Knock on wood I've had three seasons with the forward drive (one on the R8S) and I've yet to hit my trailer. We have a Boatmate trailer and she centers on there perfect every time... Hope I didn't just jynx my self by saying that ha ha.

So, I received the prop charts and was a bit surprised about the R6 performance (time to plane) compared to the R8.

R8

VP 350 2.32,K3 prop, 45 mph, 5.5 (time to plane)
VP 380 2.32,K4 prop, 47.5 mph, 5.3
VP 430 2.32,K5 prop, 50.4 mph, 4.3

The VP430 gets a bit more top end, but a significantly better "hole shot".

R6

VP 350 2.32, K4 prop, 47.3 mph, 6.5 (time to plane)
VP 380 2.32, K4 prop, 48.5 mph, 6.4
VP 430 2.12, K5 prop, no data available

I think we can estimate the top end of the VP430 at 48.5 + 2.9 mph = 51.4 (at least) as the R8 (380/450) have the same prop change (K4 to K5) and that boat gains 2.9mph from the prop change. The R6 430 (assuming it can get to redline with a 2.12 final drive) should add to that as it is a "taller" setup, so a top speed of ~52 mph? (BB are you with me??)

The disappointing thing with the R6 is the time to plane. I would have thought it would be snappier given it is lighter and shorter. I'd like to know what it is with a VP430. The dealer suggest they may not have built one with that setup, but I've watched some YouTube videos showing that engine in an R6 Surf, so maybe that setup has been tested. The dealer is checking for me.

I feel like the R6 Surf would feel pretty sluggish compared to my R3 (350 - non surf), and also slower than an R8 Surf. Something to think about.

I'm with you. Just not sure why they dropped the ratio from r8 to r6 and also run the k5 prop. All that tells me is they are going for top end. I would like to see the wot rpms they are hitting. Put a k4 on the r8 and that thing will be a stump puller.
The gear ratio change in r6 really makes no sense to me.

Again I wish cobalt would wake up and use merc b4 drive for a surf package. If you really think about it a big Block torque monster and the extra weight for a surf! Win win

[BobRae99]

That sounds about right I have yet to see 48 mph but I'm sure I could get there under perfect conditions and maybe if I drop a few pounds :0). I can get 46 pretty easy and with glassy water I've hit 47 with my wife and son on board. I have yet to hit anything with the prop but I too worry about it. Thankfully the lakes we are on are fairly deep, with shallows well marked. We trailer our boat and initially I was paranoid about hitting the prop on the trailer. Knock on wood I've had three seasons with the forward drive (one on the R8S) and I've yet to hit my trailer. We have a Boatmate trailer and she centers on there perfect every time... Hope I didn't just jynx my self by saying that ha ha.

So, I received the prop charts and was a bit surprised about the R6 performance (time to plane) compared to the R8.


R8 Surf

VP 350 2.32,K3 prop, 45 mph, 5.5 (time to plane) 5,900 rpm
VP 380 2.32,K4 prop, 47.5 mph, 5.3 6,060 rpm
VP 430 2.32,K5 prop, 50.4 mph, 4.3 6,100 rpm

The VP430 gets a bit more top end, but a significantly better "hole shot".

R6

VP 350 2.32, K4 prop, 47.3 mph, 6.5 (time to plane) 5,900 rpm
VP 380 2.32, K4 prop, 48.5 mph, 6.4 5,850 rpm
VP 430 2.12, K5 prop, no data available

I think we can estimate the top end of the VP430 at 48.5 + 2.9 mph = 51.4 (at least) as the R8 (380/450) have the same prop change (K4 to K5) and that boat gains 2.9mph from the prop change. The R6 430 (assuming it can get to redline with a 2.12 final drive) should add to that as it is a "taller" setup, so a top speed of ~52 mph? (BB are you with me??)

The disappointing thing with the R6 is the time to plane. I would have thought it would be snappier given it is lighter and shorter. I'd like to know what it is with a VP430. The dealer suggest they may not have built one with that setup, but I've watched some YouTube videos showing that engine in an R6 Surf, so maybe that setup has been tested. The dealer is checking for me.

I feel like the R6 Surf would feel pretty sluggish compared to my R3 (350 - non surf), and also slower than an R8 Surf. Something to think about.

I'm with you. Just not sure why they dropped the ratio from r8 to r6 and also run the k5 prop. All that tells me is they are going for top end. I would like to see the wot rpms they are hitting. Put a k4 on the r8 and that thing will be a stump puller.
The gear ratio change in r6 really makes no sense to me.

Again I wish cobalt would wake up and use merc b4 drive for a surf package. If you really think about it a big Block torque monster and the extra weight for a surf! Win win

Engine rpm’s added. Note the R8 380 does use the K4 prop. What I don’t understand is why the R6 Surf 380 is 1.1 seconds slower to plane than the R8 with the same setup yet the R6 is lighter.

[dsthomas]

So, I received the prop charts and was a bit surprised about the R6 performance (time to plane) compared to the R8.


R8 Surf

VP 350 2.32,K3 prop, 45 mph, 5.5 (time to plane) 5,900 rpm
VP 380 2.32,K4 prop, 47.5 mph, 5.3 6,060 rpm
VP 430 2.32,K5 prop, 50.4 mph, 4.3 6,100 rpm

Engine rpm’s added. Note the R8 380 does use the K4 prop. What I don’t understand is why the R6 Surf 380 is 1.1 seconds slower to plane than the R8 with the same setup yet the R6 is lighter.

Yeah that's some funky physics! How's that work??? Is that a typo?

[Big Block Power]

So, I received the prop charts and was a bit surprised about the R6 performance (time to plane) compared to the R8.


R8 Surf

VP 350 2.32,K3 prop, 45 mph, 5.5 (time to plane) 5,900 rpm
VP 380 2.32,K4 prop, 47.5 mph, 5.3 6,060 rpm
VP 430 2.32,K5 prop, 50.4 mph, 4.3 6,100 rpm

Engine rpm’s added. Note the R8 380 does use the K4 prop. What I don’t understand is why the R6 Surf 380 is 1.1 seconds slower to plane than the R8 with the same setup yet the R6 is lighter.

Yeah that's some funky physics! How's that work??? Is that a typo?

Bad hull design. Or good r8 hull design.

[BobRae99]

So, I received the prop charts and was a bit surprised about the R6 performance (time to plane) compared to the R8.


R8 Surf

VP 350 2.32,K3 prop, 45 mph, 5.5 (time to plane) 5,900 rpm
VP 380 2.32,K4 prop, 47.5 mph, 5.3 6,060 rpm
VP 430 2.32,K5 prop, 50.4 mph, 4.3 6,100 rpm

Engine rpm’s added. Note the R8 380 does use the K4 prop. What I don’t understand is why the R6 Surf 380 is 1.1 seconds slower to plane than the R8 with the same setup yet the R6 is lighter.

Yeah that's some funky physics! How's that work??? Is that a typo?

Bad hull design. Or good r8 hull design.

It's hard to understand it. I'm told the hulls are exactly the same with the exception of the additional 2' of length for the R8 (plus additional weight). You'd think with the same HP, final drive (2.32) and props (K4) the R6 would get out of the water quicker?

[dsthomas]

Bad hull design. Or good r8 hull design.

It's hard to understand it. I'm told the hulls are exactly the same with the exception of the additional 2' of length for the R8 (plus additional weight). You'd think with the same HP, final drive (2.32) and props (K4) the R6 would get out of the water quicker?

Hopefully Bob some more R6 surf owners will chime in so you can get some direct comparisons on real life experience with an R6 Surf. On my R8 Surf I have the VP 380 hp and K4 props and she comes out just fine for our purposes, even with a boat load of people she can pull my fat butt up to surf or wake board, all though I don't do much of the latter any more because surfing is so much fun and so much less work. If you don't need an R8 I don't know that I would upgrade to the 8 for an extra second of hull shot, but that's just my opinion (also I still find it dubious that the 8 has a faster hull shot and wondering if a miss print). My R8S compared to my R7S (both had same engine) does feel a bit sluggish of course because of the weight on the R8S. I imagine even if you spring for the 430 you'll still feel your R6S is sluggish compared to your R3, I don't feel that anything beats the hull design on the Odd series R boats for handling and cruising. The only reason we switched from our R7 surf was because the wave on the new model was just very impressive.

[BobRae99]

Bad hull design. Or good r8 hull design.

It's hard to understand it. I'm told the hulls are exactly the same with the exception of the additional 2' of length for the R8 (plus additional weight). You'd think with the same HP, final drive (2.32) and props (K4) the R6 would get out of the water quicker?

Hopefully Bob some more R6 surf owners will chime in so you can get some direct comparisons on real life experience with an R6 Surf. On my R8 Surf I have the VP 380 hp and K4 props and she comes out just fine for our purposes, even with a boat load of people she can pull my fat butt up to surf or wake board, all though I don't do much of the latter any more because surfing is so much fun and so much less work. If you don't need an R8 I don't know that I would upgrade to the 8 for an extra second of hull shot, but that's just my opinion (also I still find it dubious that the 8 has a faster hull shot and wondering if a miss print). My R8S compared to my R7S (both had same engine) does feel a bit sluggish of course because of the weight on the R8S. I imagine even if you spring for the 430 you'll still feel your R6S is sluggish compared to your R3, I don't feel that anything beats the hull design on the Odd series R boats for handling and cruising. The only reason we switched from our R7 surf was because the wave on the new model was just very impressive.

I get your points. I'm still on the fence with the surf model at this point. My best friend at the lake has a Centurion which we use for surfing and we lounge on my R3 snf water ski/wakeboard behind it. So, maybe I don't need the surf model. It might be different a few years down the road if my kids get into surfing behind teh Centurion and that is where we end up spending most of my time.

I think an R6 sterndrive with a VP380 would be plenty brisk out of the water at 4.1 seconds. I think my R3 is around 3+ seconds, so the R6 is slower but still pretty good. I guess I've got some thinking to do. At this point I'm thinking maybe a water test in the spring in an R6 sterndrive and R6 Surf, then I'll order a boat and use my excellent R3 until the new boat arrives.

[lespaulrob]

Hey Les, With boat show season in full swing I've turned my attention to considering an R6 Surf again. While I like the Malibu and especially the Nautique G23, neither of those boats are suitable for the large body of water I boat on, which can often be pretty rough. We do get many evenings with calm conditions so I was thinking an R6 Surf model might be best for me. My concern is wave height, length and push. Now that you've had a full season, a more detailed experience about wave quality, handling with the FWD drive, etc would really be appreciated. Thanks, B

Hey Bob, sorry just seeing this. I wasn't on the forum much during the winter time this year, but spring is coming and here I am again! ha!

In terms of the R6 Surf, man...Let me see if I can address your questions. I run on big water and people in traditional tow boats (Malibu, Centurion, Mastercraft, etc) absolutely get beat to death where I'm just cruising past them in total comfort. They are usually having to slow down to like 15mph but I'm slowing to 25-30 or so when the waves get crazy. The ride is truly unmatched.

Wave height, length, and push are all solid. People that are over 300 pounds have been able to surf behind me without a rope with ease. In terms of height and length, where the R6 differs from the other competitors, you kind of have to dial the wave in manually by experimenting. If you want a taller wave, you can raise the trim and slow down to like 10.5mph and it's HUGE. My oldest who is 6'3 probably 280 pounds now prefers a longer wave with a lot of push so he has room to zip up and down the wave so we go maybe 12.5mph for him with the trim on the default setting. His wave is probably 25' long and most of that is the surf pocket. I've had a few centurion owners tell me my wife is better but honestly it's personal preference. The wave FOR SURE competes with the tow boats but if you are in big water and want the comfy ride, Cobalt is the only option here.

Handling at speed, it drives like any other boat. I've spent HOURS at my marina during the week when they aren't busy learning how to drive it at slow speeds and I have to say it's really impressive. I haven't really mastered backing into a narrow slip or anything but if there's a double slip open, I can get in there easily. The one thing that I see the tow boats doing is getting close to the slip and the driver reaching out with their hand and grabbing the dock and pulling the boat around and then into the slip. This just isn't possible with my boat as you are pretty far away from the slip in terms of height and more importantly, it's a HEAVY HEAVY boat so you'd probably break your arm off trying. You have to rely on the motor and forward drive to pivot it around, which it does really well, it just takes some practice. I can turn it almost as well as a boat with twin engines, honestly.

Windy days and slow speeds are interesting as well. The boat sits off the water and when the wind catches the side of the boat and the sunbrella top cover thing, it'll push you fast, so be ready for that! lol!

I'm getting ready to start my 3rd season with the R6S and honestly can't wait. I went to the Nashville Boat Show this year and looked at everything new and quite honestly I'd buy the Cobalt again every single time. There are some nice new boats out there and I'm not bashing them at all, but all in, the R6S was 100% the right decision for me.

[BobRae99]

Hi Les, Thanks for the detailed review. Last questions (if I may) has to do with time to plane and top speed (all part of having my cake and eating it too). The prop chart for R6S with a VP 380 is showing 48.5 mph. Does that seem right? The time to plane is baffling though. The chart says 6.4 seconds. That seems agonizingly slow and is 1.1 seconds slower than an R8S with the same engine, prop and final drive (2.32). It doesn't make much sense to me because the R8S is a heavier boat, although the longer hull might help getting on plane?? Any thoughts on how zippy (or not) your R6S is getting out of the water? I don't recall what boat you moved up from but how does it's time to plane feel in comparison?

[Lifelongbtr]

The time to plane doesn't make sense to me either. Is it possible they are comparing a FWD R8 to standard stern drive in the R6? I believe the forward facing prop is more efficient...Although that may not explain the top speed being what it is. Are there charts for forward facing and standard?